Transcript

How do you design for behaviour change?

Cathy Moore joins Ross Garner and James McLuckie to explore her ‘action mapping’ technique.

Action mapping is an outcomes-focused approach to behaviour change that we use at the start of every project.

Prologue

Ross Garner

Hello and welcome to the GoodPractice Podcast, a weekly show about work, performance and learning. I’m Ross Garner and this is Episode 112 – How do you design for behaviour change?

Our special guest this week is someone who we reference all the time and whose techniques the team here at Good Practice use on every project so it it’s a real pleasure to welcome Cathy Moore to the show. Hello, Cathy.

Cathy Moore

Hello. Thanks for having me.

Ross Garner

You’re very welcome. And from GoodPractice we’re joined by James McLuckie. Hello James.

James McLuckie

Hi Ross. Hi Cathy.

Ross Garner

Cathy, we use action mapping all the time and have mentioned it on this podcast numerous times. Would you be able to describe what it is very briefly and why it’s a good approach to learning design?

Cathy Moore

What it is, very briefly, is a model of learning design that starts with a business goal. It makes everybody who thinks they want training identify what business measure will actually improve as a result of the training. From there, we list what people need to do on a job to reach that goal. Very importantly, we ask for the high priority behaviours. Why aren’t they doing it, what makes it hard?

That can filter out projects that can be solved through things other than training, and it also confirms the need for training or focuses the training. After that, we say for those behaviours that can be helped by training, what kind of activities will help people practice the thing they need to do, and only then, after that, do we consider what information do they need to have. So a sort of the inverse of the traditional approach, at least the way that I was taught which is to start with what they need to know and design from that. The reason I created it was at first to keep erm stakeholders from cramming in unnecessary information, but to also try to raise the profile of training in the organisation to be able to show why we deserve to exist, and why we help the organisation reach its goals.

Ross Garner

It’s … er … a familiar story, I think, for anyone who works in learning design that their client, whether internal or external, will come to you with a massive slide deck and say, well we want to turn this into a course, and it is always a slightly, erm, political conversation when you say, how about we put your slide deck to the side for now, erm, we talk about your outcomes and then, at some point later on, we might see if any of that slide deck is usable.

Er, could you give us an example, maybe two examples, of a scenario where you would use action mapping and it would result in training, and another example where you might decide training’s not the answer?

Cathy Moore

An example that might result in training could be … they actually do have a training problem, so they come to us and they say, turn this information into training, and ideally in that alleged hand off conversation you say, I am happy to help. In order to help, I need to have a real meeting with you, let’s schedule a real meeting, and by the way what problem are you trying to solve, and you get them to identify it in a sort of high level way. Erm, like our sales people aren’t selling enough, something like that.

Then you do a little independent research, and then you have the analysis meeting with them and you go through what is … what measure are they trying to improve in the business, what do people need to do, and you help the client see for themselves what might solve the problem. And in this first example, they do decide that sales people … let’s see, they need to practice using …erm … emotional sort of on-brand messaging, instead of focusing just on features.

Let’s say that we’re moving toward consultative emotional branding, rather than feature focus. Are the sales people are used to only talking about features so they need to practice talking in a different way, so if they actually need to practice something, that is a sign that may be training will help, and so we design practice activities. An example of when training doesn’t help would be any number of examples I can think of where, actually, the problem was solved by information. Nobody actually needed to practice anything, they just needed to have some helpful information at their fingertips or on their screen, and so it was solved with just job aids, or improving the log in process, making it easier, any number of changes that are not having to practice a skill.

Ross Garner

Sure. We, we’ve been recently talking a lot about Atul Gawande keeps coming up, the Checklist Manifesto …

Cathy Moore

Mmm huh.

Ross Garner

… and the Checklist is a great solution to situations that traditionally had months and months of training. James, you brought action mapping into GoodPractice, I believe, er, or have championed it throughout. Why do you like this approach?

James McLuckie

I think because it makes sense, it makes common sense, is the main thing. So, erm, I can’t remember how I first heard about it. I’m fairly sure it was on Twitter. I was getting quite into … into … I was getting quite big into Twitter at the time, and someone was talking about it, someone I respected so I looked at Cathy’s blog and followed it and I thought, do you know what … this … why is everyone not doing this, it just makes such sense. So, the first few times I tried it, erm, clients got it right away, they understood why we were challenging certain things, they understood why we were asking them for outcomes.

They didn’t always have the outcomes, or they didn’t always have good outcomes, but they, they could pick up the process really quickly, and what we find as well is that it’s … it’s very adaptable, erm, so sometimes, clients can’t articulate that measurable business objective because maybe sometimes it’s just not there, but there’s still other stages in the process that you can … you can go through so, for example, you just ask them to define a success criteria. If they can’t come up with a metric, you know, you say well what’s, what would success look like and then you can still follow the other steps. So, as I said, it’s just a really good, practical way of putting together a learning solution erm and we don’t … sorry Cathy, we don’t call it action mapping any more because we found clients didn’t quite understand what we meant by that, so we call it an outcomes framework …

Cathy Moore

Mmm huh.

James McLuckie

… and they seem to understand that a little bit more. But yes, I mean, as I said, we’ve been using it for a few years now and it’s a technique that’s really never failed us. I think Cathy, you mentioned the word focused there, and that’s exactly what it does. It does focus that whole … erm design and scoping process, erm and, you know, it’s, you know, as I said, I don’t understand why everyone doesn’t use it because it’s been really successful for us.

Ross Garner

It’s good fun as well, I think. I think often when you have these conversations, clients are surprised. They expect you to do what they said, and then when you ask, why do you want this thing, they’re often like, er yes, a few months ago someone had a idea and …

James McLuckie

Yes.

Ross Garner

… and we got some budget for it, but now we actually …

James McLuckie

Yes. 

Ross Garner

… need to think about what this is actually for.

James McLuckie

Yes. What, what’s really quite amusing as well is we say to clients, we’re going to have a two hour scoping meeting with you and they think, we’ve done all the scoping, we don’t need that. Erm, and actually it was very seldom you don’t get a client that … they might be slightly surprised in the first instance, but it is very seldom that, as Ross said, you mentioned the fun word there, that they don’t enjoy it, they don’t enjoy thinking through why they’re doing a particular piece of learning, er, or trying to design an particular piece of learning, and what is it it’s trying to achieve, erm but, you know, I’d say 99% of the time, clients go, that was a really worthwhile process, and quite often their thinking changes as a result of it, and so if they’ve got a fixed idea in their head what this should look like but then when you go through the action mapping process, at the end of it, it quite often looks very different from what they expected and that’s, you know, that’s a really healthy position to be in, I think.

Cathy Moore

And ideally, they have come to their decision on their own. You sort of pointed them in the right direction, but then they come to conclusion on their own. Oh, the course that we were imaging, not exactly what we need. We need this combination of things.

James McLuckie

Yes, yes. That doesn’t, ha ha!

Ross Garner

Sometimes they get help as well.

James McLuckie

Yes, indeed, yes. But what I thought was erm, what I’ve always thought has been quite interesting, I’ve done a few talks on instructional design and what I’ve learned over the years, and I guess if I could anecdote to what action mapping is, I was delivering a talk and I mentioned that action mapping was one of the things that I used, and I give a very light touch demonstration of what it looks like, erm, and a former colleague was in the … was one of the delegates, and then later on in the pub, another colleague who works with this colleague, came up to me and said, I see you … all that’s happened there, because you’ve talked about action mapping er, the ex-colleague went back to the office and says, I can’t believe no one else in the business is using this, you know James McLuckie talked about this great technique, we should all be using this and, you know, people in the org are not doing their jobs, because we don’t do action mapping, so erm, I think that’s quite a nice, kind of evidence that people do get it, and then when you do, kind of outline the four steps, as Cathy did there, it is very difficult to argue with them, really.

Ross Garner

Erm, let’s assume that we are going to argue with that, though.

James McLuckie

Oh ok.

Ross Garner

Cathy, what are some of the challenges you hear from people who are using the action mapping technique?

Cathy Moore

Some of the biggest challenges, well the biggest issue, usually is the common situation that a stakeholder has come to us saying, turn this information into training, so it’s not only the client, even, it might be our colleagues who are totally set on the idea that our job is to convert information into a course, and so it’s a cultural issue that we have to fight against, and the fight is partly what we mentioned earlier, that we have not just a hand off meeting but then a second consultative meeting, a scoping, whatever you want to call it, to dig deeper into the problem. And I’ll actually be talking about this at the online Educa, Educa… I don’t know how to say it, the Berlin conference.

[laughter].

Ross Garner

We can put a link in the show notes.

Cathy Moore

Thanks. Erm, I’ll be giving a talk on how to, what exactly words … what words should leave your mouth when you have a client, saying, turn this information into a course, what can you say to them to sell them on the idea of actually looking at the problem, but that is the biggest challenge that I hear, and I think it’s a cultural challenge. The other challenges are sort of the same challenges that we face, no matter what model we’re using, erm … a subject matter expert that wants to cram a lot of information in, or of a subject matter expert that disappears, or the stakeholder that does not look at the material until the very end and then says, no you can’t do it that way, all of the usual things.

Ross Garner

Ah, that’s not just us.

James McLuckie

Do you find that the, that the bit that we, not struggle with but that we find the clients, you know, struggle with, is the actual defining of the, of the outcomes, and sometimes it’s reticence on their part because they’re … the don’t … even though they appreciate why they’d want that evalue … it’s a good evaluation metrics, sometimes they don’t want to put their name to that, because if the final resource doesn’t meet that metric, it’s almost like an admission of failure, erm so, you know, I’ve had some clients being quite honest with me and saying, I don’t want to be as defined as that, because that’s the very specific measure of success and, you know, I’m not sure we’ll attain that. So I find that, that sometimes can be quite a struggle, to get clients to really, you know, kind of articulate what it is they want to achieve with a piece of learning content.

Cathy Moore

I think that’s certainly understandable. A lot of it comes from the fact that we really can’t guarantee that this measure will improve. There’s a lot of … one way to phrase it is, weasel wording. Instead of saying, our goal is to increase sales X percent, our goal is to contribute to an increase in sales [laughter] of X percent, so that when sales increase a certain amount we can say, look we contributed to that. Another approach is to have the Big Hairy Audacious Goal and then have sub goals that are a little closer and easier to measure, that people feel a little more comfortable about.

So the Big Hairy Audacious one is to contribute to an increase in sales of whatever. What the sub goal is, erm … sales people demonstrate a greater skill in consultative sales as reported by their managers, something like that. Something where you can say, hey managers, how are your sales people doing on the following behaviours and they can give us a little score.

Ross Garner

I think the other way you can do it is to not share your outcomes with your boss, so [laughter]. You have your action map or outcomes framework, and that’s just for your benefit. You can, erm review if it’s been a success or not. If it has then, you know, out comes the champagne and the streamers, but if it hasn’t then you’ll just quietly say that you are ticking lessons learned.

James McLuckie

I was going to say, yes, what happens in scoping club, stays in scoping club so … [laughter]

Ross Garner

I think sales is not to criticise, but in a way an easy example and not one that we come across too often is … easy in the sense that it’s directly correlated with a metric. But a lot of work that we do doesn’t have such defined metric, and indeed, you know, who can totally define their performance with one number, so, how do you handle those situations where you’re trying to come up with outcomes where it is a bit more woolly than the number of units sold?

Cathy Moore

One I like to recommend to people is the use of Google, so if somebody says, we need leadership training, and you say, ok, and then you go to Google and you say, how do you measure leadership. And you get all sorts of ideas, and it could be everything from engagement statistics, if there’s sort of an employee engagement measure that the organisation is using, erm you could do a before and after survey of people saying, you know, how well is your manager currently performing in the following skills.

They complete that survey, you put your solution into place, give it time to sort of have effect and percolate, and then you do a similar survey for the after measure. So, when it’s kind of vague and fuzzy, like, our people feel more included, or things like that, it really is interesting to just go to Google and say, how do you measure blank or how do I blank, whatever it is that you’re trying to measure, and Google Scholar, in particular will give you research on how people have actually measured this thing.

Ross Garner 

You’re unlikely to be the first person to have come across this particular problem.

James McLuckie

Yes, yes definitely.

Cathy Moore

Yes.

Ross Garner

Erm, often when we’re developing practice activities for learners, we’re trying to base these on realistic scenarios, er, what do we think makes a good scenario?

Cathy Moore

Er, what do I think is a good scenario [laughs] … that would be, erm one that helps people practise a tricky decision that they actually need to make on the job, and it’s realistic in the sense that it includes enough details to recreate the context of the job, and realistic in the sense that the player, the person making the decision sees the natural consequence of their decision.

We don’t have an omniscient voice from on high inserting itself into the story saying, no, no, no. So, it’s realistic. It has enough detail that it feels realistic, and very importantly, it’s based on a deep analysis of the decision, much deeper than I was taught to do when I went to instructional design, on the job training. I didn’t go to school, but I was taught how to do it on the job.

We need an analysis that’s deeper than that because we need to understand not only what would be the best decision, but we need to know why is it hard to make that decision and include those issues in the question itself in the context that we’ve set. And we also need to do that for the most common mistake. What is the most common mistake? And not only, oh you know it’s wrong, don’t do it. Why do people do it? So we can recreate the temptations in the scenario to help them … tempt them to make the common mistake. And so, we need that analysis for like three or four things.

The best choice, why it’s hard to make, and what would be the consequence, the most common mistake. What makes it tempting and would be its consequence, and a couple of other mistakes or not so great choices, and everything related to them. Quite a bit more demanding of the subject matter expert.

James McLuckie

I really like that focus, in terms of decision making and that, that’s helped me out quite a few times when I … when I’m sitting down trying to put together a piece of learning content and it’s not been too obvious to me what approach I should take.

Erm, it was actually you mentioning about … action mapping’s a great way of practising decision making, and actually when I thought about it, everything that we do, even if it’s not obvious, there’s a decision to be made, so, for example, I was putting together a coaching resource and I thought, well do you know what, erm, it might not be obvious that coaching and decision making go hand in hand, but actually as a coach, you make a decision to erm implement a certain technique or methodology, you make a decision to ask a certain question of your coachee, and I thought about that whole decision making process.

You know, that goes across … cuts across absolutely everything and there’s been times I’ve been struggling with how to approach a particular subject, I’ve just gone back to that whole decision making focus and it’s really helped me out.

Ross Garner

How do you find that works, erm in practice, though, in e-learning in particular, when you have like a lot of the time a difficult decision at work are going to be based on erm … you know, there’s actual money that’s going to be spent, or your manager’s watching you or there’s time pressures and these kind of things? How well do you think e-learning is suited to replicating these kind of challenges?

Cathy Moore

It requires good fiction writing skills in order to create a scenario that’s believable, that has the impatient manage, the tight budget, whatever pressures people are under, erm … I actually prefer to use scenarios with live discussion, so if it’s a hairy thing like that, I think it’s great to have a scenario and make it controversial, if possible and then have a live de-brief discussion or a series of scenarios, maybe spaced out over time, everybody gets a scenario in their e-mail every Tuesday, and then at the end of the month we have discussion, either in person or live online about the issues raised by the scenarios, and ideally, people are going to disagree with how you designed one or two of the scenarios saying, we should have had the following choice, why didn’t you give us this obvious choice, and then you could say, why do you think I didn’t?

[laughter]

What was I trying to help people figure out, what was I trying to help people learn? So they discuss not only, you know, the takeaways they got from the scenarios but also, why was it designed that way and that, I think, creates far deeper learning than the scenario alone.

Ross Garner

Yes, that’s interesting. So, flipping the question, what makes a bad scenario?

Cathy Moore

Bad scenario would be … a very common mistake is to write a scenario that’s super generic. Meaning, they’re afraid to give it a specific context, a specific job roll even, and it becomes so abstract that it’s more like a knowledge quiz, a knowledge test, where it’s saying, given this abstract situation, which rule would you apply? So, it’s not really a scenario.

A scenario needs specific people, specific context, a specific challenge ideally to make it realistic. And, let’s see, what’s another … oh yes, often in hand with the generic scenario is the patronising or preachy scenario, where it’s may be a little obvious or you make a poor choice and suddenly somebody inserts themselves saying, no, no, no, you shouldn’t have done that, you should have done this other thing, and you start to feel like you’re being lectured at and you start to be resent the story and feel like it’s manipulating you.

So, yes, mostly it’s … I think, from what I’ve seen from running a scenario design course, I’d look at people’s homework. They send me their scenarios for review, and the most common mistake is that a too generic scenario with not enough subtle challenge to it, so that … usually what I say is the stem has to be improved, the question itself or the story idea needs a lot more meat to it, so that people really feel like they’re having to think to make the decision, and when they see the consequence, they’re having to think and are not being … feel like they’re being manipulated.

Ross Garner

It is difficult that though, because you tend to have erm clients … you know they … they’re paying for e-learning say, and so who’s the audience of this? Well we’re going to give it to everyone because we are paying quite a lot of money for it, and so we want to get as broad a reach as possible. So I have some sympathy with the genetic scenario, because often it’s … if you make it too specific, then you … you lose half your audience.

Cathy Moore

Or you could have people when they log in to the thing, identify their job role, and that send them down a path where they see only the scenarios that actually apply to them.

Ross Garner

Yes, I like that. Were you going to say something James?

James McLuckie

I was just going to say er, the push back we get from clients about that is, well initially, they’re very excited and then we’ll say, well that’s about another forty minutes worth of content we’re going to have to develop so that’s going to cost you another X thousands of pounds to do that, so that, that’s what tends to happen, but …

Ross Garner

Or the other one is er, but we want them to see everything.

James McLuckie

Yes …

Ross Garner

So that they get to the end of the scenario then they go back and do the other ones.

Cathy Moore

Yes.

James McLuckie

Absolutely. But it definitely is the trickiest part of instructional design sometimes I think it is, as you said, Cathy, writing scenarios that aren’t preachy or patronising, erm and there is enough challenge in there that it’s not so generic that it’s, that it’s worthless, erm but by the same time not taking people out of their own particular context, erm and, you know, it’s absolutely worth the effort and the pain to write a scenario that’s going to do that, but yes, I‘m not sure it’s something that I, that I’ve mastered the art of, erm and I guess a lot depends on the subject matter and how inherent the scenario or how authentic the scenarios are to the challenge you’re trying to solve and the problem you are trying to solve, erm, but certainly, there has been times where it has been … the most painful part of instructional design process is coming up with those scenarios that are … it’s going to have enough colour to them that, that all the audience will get something out of, that is the part I think I’ve probably wrestled with the most when it comes to instructional design.

Ross Garner

Yes, sure.

Cathy Moore

Erm, one thing that can help is to ask the subject matter expert, if you aren’t already, ask them for a story about a time when they, or somebody else did this extraordinary specific decision. So, tell me about a time when you had a difficult conversation with a, an employee and, er they complained to your boss, something like that. What happened, what do you think went wrong in that discussion? If you were to do it again, what would you have done differently? An extremely specific story about an extremely specific event, and then you say, do you mind if I fictionalise that and there you have it, ideally [laughter]. It depends.

Ross Garner

It sounds so easy [laughter]. Like, why’ve we not been doing that. [laughter]

Cathy Moore

I like, erm what the army does, the US army, they …

I worked on a project for them that was based on a lot of what they call critical incidents. So something striking happens. People have a learning experience in the field, so they write it up, and it becomes port of a database of these things, and then those critical incidents are then fodder for all sorts of training and discussion and everything, and I think corporations should be doing that too. What did we learn from this?

Ross Garner

Yes, it’s one of those things where, if someone is likely to die, then it does tend to get recorded and analysed in some depth but in general corporate life you go, oh well, we were meant to do that, let’s just never talk about it again.

Cathy Moore

Yes.

James McLuckie

Well I hope people don’t die regularly in a corporate environment.

Ross Garner

If only they would, what a rich well of scenarios we would have …

James McLuckie

I must say, that money laundering training finished someone off … [laughter]. Let’s capture lessons learned from that.

Ross Garner

I’m going to throw a curveball. Er, Cathy I’m curious what you think of game-based learning, erm …

James McLuckie

I was thinking that as well, actually.

Ross Garner

… because scenarios er, approach, lends itself
I think, towards serious games … serious, rather than points and badges.

Cathy Moore

Ok. Serious … yes for defining it as serious games when it’s basically a simulation?

Ross Garner

Yes.

Cathy Moore

But, in addition to making decisions and seeing consequences you might be moving closer toward a fictional goal or something. I think that, erm … serious games that I’ve seen have been essentially simulations and which, in my world, scenarios and simulations are the same thing.

Ross Garner

Mmm huh.

Cathy Moore

So, I would say a serious game is a label applied to a really well developed branching scenario, erm so I like them, yes. What I don’t like are what you mentioned before, the little jeopardy style games where you click the correct answer and ding, ding, ding, you get a point …

Ross Garner

Yes.

Cathy Moore

… not so fond of those, because we are teaching adults.

Ross Garner

Yes. I don’t like the board game on screen examples that you see sometimes. I find them particularly irksome.

Cathy Moore

[laughs]

Ross Garner

Erm, I’m going to ask one last question I think before we move one, which is, what other instructional design models do you think are effective? Are there any others that you like or have you torn them all up and made your own?

Cathy Moore

[laughs]. I put them all on a bonfire and I lit a match [laugher]. No erm …

Ross Garner

These are all hopeless, I’ll do it myself [laughter]

Cathy Moore

No, I think that there are plenty of instructional design models out there that I have seen that have all sorts of great application and I would say, even the humble ADDIE model that we all love to hate, the … is just er, … it’s major issue is that it’s inappropriately applied.

I think any model that starts with the idea that we are changing behaviour, not transplanting knowledge, and that puts the appropriate emphasis on analysing the problem, not analysing the audience, and I think that the way ADDIE gets misapplied is it starts with the assumption that we are transferring information from one brain to another, and the only analysis that gets done is, who is the audience for this training that we’ve already assumed we have to create. If they were to just step back a little bit [laughs] and talk about behaviour change, have a measurable performance goal and analyse the problem in that A part, it would all be a lot better.

So I would say, any model that focuses on changing behaviour not transferring the information, and that analyses the performance problem, not just a needs analysis on why do they need training, but the question is, do they need training, and what else might help solve this problem, in addition to or instead of training.

Ross Garner

Ah, a top summary of the entire discussion. You’ve done this before. [laughter]. Er, we’ll move on now to our regular feature What I learned this week, where we share something we’ve picked up over the past seven days. James, do you want to go first?

James McLuckie

Sure, so, the big thing that’s happened to me in the past week is that I did a charity walk on Saturday erm and I was trying to think of something, a profound lesson learned from that. So essentially we, myself and some colleagues at GoodPractice, we walked 26 miles through a beautiful part of Scotland er in Cramond, for … in aid of Macmillan and cancer support. And, er … obviously there’s various things I could talk about that but erm last year myself and some, some colleagues, we walked 54 miles, er …for the British Heart Foundation, so 26 felt like a mere sprint, and actually the charity donations I collected for the 26 mile walk this year, it certainly suggest that other people thought to themselves, hang on a minute, you ask for money for 54 miles last year and now you’re back for 26, well you are getting nothing!

[laughter].

And so … but I got a few donations. But I just wondered … for me, the most surprising thing was I managed to walk 54 miles last year and it was, it was quite painful, it was difficult, I’m not going to lie, because our bodies are not really designed to walk that far, erm but I got to the end of the 26 one on Saturday and I was relieved it was finished and I felt like, yes I‘m very glad that’s finished and, you know, I‘m not sure I could have walked the additional 20-odd miles er to get to 54 again this year but, you know, last year when I got to 26 miles, there was no sense of, I’m done now, er, you know, I know I had to do another extra 28 miles on top of that, so I just wonder, do you know a lesson there of … if there is sort of kind of psychological thing about end points, erm and if you’re aware of the end point and you know what you have to achieve, then psychologically or physically you just know, erm that, you know, there’s more to go, erm because I’m not … when I got to the end of the 26 miles on Saturday, I did think, I’m not sure I could walk another 28 miles, but actually if I knew I had to do them right from the start, I wonder if I would have done it again this year, so I don’t …it’s not really a lesson learned, it’s more, more of a thought.

Ross Garner

My goodness, my goodness. My what I learned is very similar, but on a dorky learning series plane [laughs] about … but still about knowing what your end point’s going to be from the start. Erm, I learned a new term this week, consequential validity. Either of us heard of this before?

James McLuckie

No. No. 

Ross Garner

I hadn’t either. It relates to the effect of tests on how people learn. So a test has high consequential validity if it encourages desired behaviours. So, for example, if you want managers to communicate better on assessments you would encourage them to develop this ability. A test that has lower consequential validity would be the one that encourages other behaviours like, for example, rote learning communications series.

So instead of thinking of assessment as a way of testing what people have learned, we should be using it as part of the learning process. Influencing how the learner approaches the topic. And even more practically than that, it shouldn’t be a surprise at the end of a formal course that there is an assessment, they should be saying, you’re going to be assessed on this measure, and as you go through whatever this experience is, you should be developing the skills required to pass that test.

Cathy Moore

Well I like all this talk about goals … I’m a super goal oriented person erm and I agree that if you … and I think that’s an important point about having a far goal, a biggish goal, and knowing, when you start you have this biggish goal to achieve and if … in terms of instructional design, if everybody involved in the project realises, no they’re not aiming to get a happy smile sheet, they’re not aiming to just deliver this thing to the client at the deadline. They are aiming for this bigger goal. There is a longer sprint involved, there’s a longer trip involved, and that final goal might have erm … be happening farther in the future. I think there’s a deeper commitment possibly involved. I don’t know.

Ross Garner

Yes, maybe that seems less like something you’re to rush through and get it over with …

Cathy Moore

Yes.

Ross Garner

… it’s something that’s actually meaningful to you. And Cathy, what’ve you learned this week?

Cathy Moore

I was reminded of something that I keep apparently having to learn, by a quote and in this case it comes from Dan Sullivan, who is a sort of a business guru in the United States and the quote is “All progress starts by telling the truth”. I’ve heard other versions of it from other people, but I think that it’s an extremely important reminder, and again in our field, somebody comes to us and says, we need a course on X, our question is basically, is that true?

Ross Garner

Mmm huh.

Cathy Moore

Not, yes ma’am or yes sir, but we don’t say it quite so bluntly [laughter] … as much as we might like to.

Ross Garner

Yes, it looks like something Mike’s always pursuing. Great and that’s all from us. If you’d like to get in touch with us about anything we’ve said on this show, you can tweet me at RossGarnerGP, you can tweet James at @JamesMcLuckie and you can tweet Cathy Moore At CatMoore.

Ross Garner

You can also tweet @goodpractice and @goodpracticeaus to find out more about our performance support toolkit and bespoke e-learning, it’s very scenario based, visit goodpractice.com.

You can out find more about Cathy at blog.cathy-moore.com. We’ll put a link in the show notes.

Next week, Dawn Taylor and Michelle Ockers are back speaking to Ross Dickie and Owen Ferguson about the skills required by 21st Century L & D team.

To make sure you don’t miss it, subscribe now wherever you get your podcast.

Thanks for listening and bye for now.

[Recording ends at 33 minutes and 40 seconds]

SHOW NOTES:

The assessment concept Ross discussed, ‘consequential validity’, is covered here: Boud, D. (1995). ‘Assessment and learning: contradictory or complementary‘. In: Knight, P. ed. Assessment for Learning in Higher Education. London: Kogan Page/SEDA. pp. 35-48.